Us Citizenship

Question:

I guess what I'm wondering here, though, is how do I prove my 'status in the US'? The list on the loose sheet insert does not include 'social security card' as acceptable for 'proof of status in the US'. Can my birth abroad still be registered with a US embassy, 33 years after the fact? Should I? It's possible I may receive a response to ignore the 'proof of status in the US' part on the list of documents to include, but then they may say it's required. I have no idea.

Answer:

Ok. My situation has my own head spinning, so I don't know what any of you will think of it.

First, I was born in Vancouver, B.C., Canada, in 1972. My parents, however, were both US citizens. They immigrated to Canada for a variety of reasons, I think, including having relatives there, my father having a job offer at a newspaper there, and I also believe because of the Vietnam War situation at the time. My parents were definitely not there in a diplomatic capacity and did not work for a foreign agency.

They moved to Canada either in 1971, or in early 1972. I was born in July of 1972. They stayed in Canada until the beginning of 1977, by which time my mother missed her relatives back in the US, and my father had received a better job offer in the US that would facilitate him going back to college for his master's and subsequently his doctorate. I was not quite 5, and hadn't started school yet (which I did in the latter half of 1977 in the US).

When they moved to Canada, they applied for and received legal resident status. What they did not do, however, was finish this process and become Canadian citizens. They also never registered my birth with a US embassy/consulate.

Somehow, I was able to start kindergarten in the US. I don't know what documents were required at the time. I continued through school and didn't have a problem with this, except shortly before my first visit to the UK, in 1987 to see an uncle married. At this time (at 14), I had to go through the process of receiving a US social security number in order to then apply for a US passport, as I could no longer travel on a parent's passport. I was required to take a US oath to receive the passport, and of course my Canadian birth certificate had been sent in, and I'm sure my parents' US birth certificates, as well.

I didn't think much of this for many years afterward. I had/have a US passport, and was able to travel. I also had/have a social security number, and am able to work. But when it came time to renew my passport to travel to China, I came up against problems. The US passport issuing agency questioned my citizenship. I sent in a letter, stating how long I had been in the US, that I had a social security number, and pay US taxes, and as I recall I sent my parents' birth certificates in as well. After this, I was re-issued another US passport, and thought that this meant I was officially recognized as a US citizen.

Now to 'switch gears'. I've always assumed I was a Canadian citizen (and of course a citizen of the Commonwealth) as well, and have taken pride in it. But I ran across info regarding the "Lost Canadians" on the internet, and began to look into it more. I realized that I was probably indeed officially a Canadian citizen (particularly because of changes in Canadian law regarding the "Lost Canadians" in May of this year), and decided to 'formalize' this, so to speak, by sending off for my Canadian citizenship card. Well, after emailing the Canadian consulate in Los Angeles about my particular situation, I received a brief reply that I was likely a Canadian citizen and that I should apply for a Canadian citizenship card. So, they emailed me an application package.

But here's where I'm starting to get concerned about WHAT country(ies) of which I'm actually considered a citizen. One thing listed on a loose sheet insert regarding documents to send in, included in the package the Canadian consulate sent me, notes 'proof of status in the US'. As acceptable proof, the following are listed: Alien Registration Card, US Naturalization Certificate, or US report of birth abroad. Well, my parents never reported my birth to a US embassy/consulate anywhere, either in Vancouver or elsewhere. And I don't have an Alien Registration Card as both of my parents were born in the US. I also do not believe I have a US Naturalization Certificate as both of my parents were born in the US. But of course my birth certificate is Canadian. Also, this particular list clearly notes that a US passport is -not- considered proof of status, as it is only a travel document. Now, there is another list of needed documents, that was stapled with the 'application for a Canadian citizenship certificate' package, entitled, "Documents You Must Send With Your Application." According to the category I fall under, "If you have never had a citizenship certificate, and you were born in Canada," there is no requirement for 'proof of status in the US'. In fact, no category one might fall under lists this requirement. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I've emailed the Canadian consulate in LA and am awaiting response.

I thought my citizenship in the US was automatic since both of my parents were born in the US. I've read elsewhere on these forums about a certain amount of time having lived in the US being required for parents, and although they spent those years in Canada, and spent some time elsewhere abroad before my birth, they would still meet that requirement. I'm not sure how I would go about proving it, though, as my mother is now deceased, and I have little communication with my father. In fact, my mother fell seriously ill upon returning to the US, and my father's goals were post-graduate oriented, so after coming to the US, I was actually raised by my grandmother and great-aunt. So I'm not sure what it would take to prove they spent the required amount of time in the US for me to be considered a US citizen (school/university records?). And since the US does not issue certificates of citizenship like Canada does, I'm not sure what document would be acceptable to send to the Canadian consulate regarding that 'proof of status in the US' thing.

I know this was long -- sorry, I'm bad about that sort of thing. But thank you for any and all help/suggestions, and thanks for your time!

isnt a copy of your US passport proof of US citizenship??

When boiled down to everything, your question is a short one of Canadian law and procedures.

As far as the United States is concerned, the passport IS bona fide evidence of US citizenship. Until about 25 years ago, the passport was NOT definitive evidence of citizenship, but was just a travel document. However, under UNITED STATES law, it is such evidence.

However, if the Canadian government won't accept the US passport, then you CAN file an "N-600" with US Citizenship & Immigraton Services for issuance of a Certificate of Citizenship. This is issued to US citizens who did not naturalize in their own right -- my mother was issued one because she had "derivative naturalization" and you can get one as having "derivative citizenship."

1. On the basis of the information available, this person is a Canadian citizen.

2. Using the table on Joe Grasmick's site, it seems that this person (born between 1952 and 1986) automatically acquired US citizenship at birth, due to having two US citizen parents who had previously resided in the US. http://www.grasmick.com/citizen.htm#CITIZENSHIP%20FROM

2. "I was required to take a US oath to receive the passport." Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?

I do apologize for the length of my initial post -- I have a very bad habit of doing that when first explaining a situation. If there is any New Year's resolution list for me, trying to be more brief should be near the top of that list.

In any case, you've given me some informative and interesting responses.

I actually did receive a response back from the Canadian consulate today (via email), and the lady I've been "speaking" to said that I should just send in my US passport as 'proof of US status' along with a letter explaining why I can't send one of the other listed documents, instead. I must say, I am a bit loathe to send in my passport, and not only because I wouldn't have it for six to ten months (that's the time period stated in the docs sent to me for the processing of a first-time Canadian citizenship certificate app!), but also because the loose-sheet list of docs to send in specifically states that a US passport is NOT official 'proof of status' in the US. It looks like the US recognizes it as such, with your responses, but not Canada.

Although she didn't mention it (she may not be aware of it), it looks like the N-600 form is likely the way to go. Probably including a letter of explanation with that form wouldn't hurt, either. I'm surprised the N-600 form wasn't listed on the acceptable docs page. But the passport thing surprises me just as much.

Regarding this question from Jaj:

"Is it (or was it) legal for the INS or US Passport Service to request an oath from those who were *already* US citizens?"

That's a very good question. I've wondered about that myself. In fact, when I had to take that oath, no one else was required to do so in my group (of a few various family members who were either renewing a passport or getting one for the first time, and those family members were all born in the US). I remember that I balked a bit at having to take the oath, which infuriated my family (I think for practical reasons), and I was told (by the agency) that I had to do so, or would not be issued a passport.

As best I can tell from Kiahlin's story, he is almost certainly a citizen (by birth) of both the US and Canada.

(1) He was born with Canadian citizenship because he was born in Canada (in 1972), to parents who were not foreign diplomats.

(2) He was also born with US citizenship because, although he was born outside the US, both of his parents were US citizens, and at least one (actually, in this case, both) of his parents had resided in the US for some period of time prior to Kiahlin's birth in Canada.

Note that, in the case where both parents of a non-US-born child are US citizens, the child is automatically a US citizen as long as =either= parent "had a residence" in the US for =any= amount of time prior to the child's birth. My experience has been that US consulates will ask for, and normally accept, a parent's having been physically present in the US for at least one full year as satisfying this requirement -- but this is =not= what the law actually says.

It also seems pretty clear to me that Kiahlin never lost either citizenship and still has both citizenships.

(1) Since he was born in Canada to parents who were not, and never became, Canadian citizens, the only way he could lose Canadian citizenship would be if he were to make a formal renunciation of his Canadian citizenship, submitted to Canadian officials, on or after his 18th birthday. It doesn't appear he ever did any such thing.

Note that even if the oath Kiahlin was (perhaps illegally) required by US officials to take in order to get a US pass- port in 1987 was the standard US naturalization oath -- which contains a blanket statement disavowing all other allegiances -- this would not have been recognized under Canadian law as having any legal effect on Kiahlin's Cana- dian citizenship. Under Canada's current (1977) citizenship law, dual Canadian/other citizenship is freely permitted; foreign naturalization is =not= a basis for losing Canadian citizenship, and the only way for a Canadian citizen who was born in Canada to lose citizenship is by filing a formal renunciation of citizenship (on a special Canadian form) with Canadian officials. Taking a foreign oath of alle- giance, no matter what it might say about renouncing or abjuring other allegiances, means =nothing= under current Canadian law.

Kiahlin mentioned the "lost Canadians" and the May 2005 law allowing certain people born with Canadian citizenship to get it back. Note, though, that this would be totally irrelevant to Kiahlin's situation, since the May 2005 law was directed at people who lost Canadian citizenship as a result of a parent's losing their citizenship -- something that doesn't describe Kiahlin's situation. Again, based on what Kiahlin has said, he =never= lost his Canadian citizenship and is =still= a Canadian citizen now.

(2) Since he was born in 1972, there is no way Kiahlin could have lost his US citizenship. If he had been born signif- icantly earlier, he could have lost his US citizenship before 1978 -- either by failing to move to the US before age 26, or by making use of his Canadian citizenship as an adult (such as by applying for and using a Canadian passport). The law providing for loss under such circum- stances, however, was repealed by Congress in late 1978, and Kiahlin (being only six years old at that time) could not possibly have fallen into any of the categories under which his US citizenship might have been lost prior to the repeal of this law.

So, I'm pretty sure Kiahlin has both US and Canadian citizen- ship now. Note, BTW, that any claims Kiahlin may have heard during his lifetime about having to formally choose a single citizenship at age 18, 21, or at any other time, are urban myths with no basis in present-day US or Canadian law.

Regarding Canadian officials' request for proof of Kiahlin's (and/or his parents') status in the US, in order to issue him a Certificate of Canadian Citizenship (credit-card-sized, plastic-laminated photo ID, commonly known as a "citizenship card"), my understanding is that this information is normally sought in order to tell whether a person who moved to the US may have lost Canadian citizenship under provisions of Canada's pre-1977 citizenship law. (In contrast to current Canadian law, which took effect on 15 February 1977, the pre-1977 law was pretty intolerant of dual citizenship and provided several ways whereby Canadian citizenship could be lost.)

Basically, as far as I know, the only way someone of Kiahlin's age could have lost Canadian citizenship would be if their father (or, in some special cases, their mother) had lost or given up Canadian citizenship prior to 2/15/77 -- such as by becoming a citizen of another country (something that resulted in loss of Canadian citizenship then, although it does =not= have that effect under present-day Canadian law). However, it would have been impossible for Kiahlin to have lost his Canadian citizen- ship in this way, since his father never acquired Canadian citizenship in the first place (and thus could not have lost it, given that he never had it).

My impression is that it may be possible for Kiahlin to satisfy the Canadian citizenship officials' concerns by showing that his parents never became Canadian citizens -- and thus couldn't have lost Canadian citizenship -- at least up till 2/15/77. (Anything happening on or after that date would be irrelevant, because as of that date it was no longer possible for a child to lose Canadian citizenship as a result of any action by the parents.)

Showing that Kiahlin's parents were born in the US (and were thus already US citizens before Kiahlin was born) might also help bolster the presumption that they didn't lose Canadian citizenship by acquiring US citizenship later on -- in case it somehow turns out to be difficult to show that his parents never became Canadian citizens during their stay in Canada.

And if Kiahlin and his parents stayed in Canada until at least 2/15/77, it's probably won't really be necessary for him to show anything at all regarding his or his parents' status in the US.

In theory, you shouldn't really have to apply for a citizenship card. Your Canadian birth certificate proves that you received Canadian citizenship at birth. Most people who have citizenship cards are either people who naturalized as Canadian citizens or who were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent. You could simply apply for a Canadian passport.

That being said, if it's your first Canadian passport they will still ask for the "proof of status" in the US (because they need to verify that you didn't lose your Canadian citizenship prior to 1977, when the law changed).

So, it's not that you don't qualify for a citizenship card. You can get one if you wish. But since you were born in Canada, it's an unnecessary expense.

It is. But it doesn't prove when he received his US citizenship, and that is important from a Canadian standpoint.

The Canadian officials are trying to determine whether or not Kiahlin may have lost Canadian citizenship under the pre-1977 nationality laws in Canada. As has been explained in other posts, if Kiahlin's father had been a Canadian (which he was not), and if his father had naturalized in the US (or any other country) after Kiahlin was born but before the 1977 laws were in place then Kiahlin would have lost Canadian citizenship along with his father.

Since 1977, naturalizing abroad has no effect on Canadian citizenship. Kiahlin needs to show that he did not become a US citizen due to his (or a parent's) naturalization outside of Canada prior to 1977.

You could confirm whether they will keep your US passport for the entire time. They may simply make a copy of it then send the US passport back to you. While they will not accept copies, if they make the copy themselves then they know it to be true.

I don't know if it would be acceptable, unless it showed the date that you acquired your US citizenship, which in your case would be the date that you were born. That is what they're trying to verify.

Interesting. But didn't he become US citizen the moment he was born?

Or that's for only those born inside US regradless of parents' status?

Actually, what Kiahlin needs to do is show that his =father= did not become a naturalized US citizen (thereby losing Canadian citizenship) prior to 15 Feb. 1977. This didn't happen, BTW, according to Kiah- lin's story, but the Canadian procedures for verifying someone's citizenship take the possibility into account.

This gets really complicated, but under Canada's pre-1977 citizenship law, if an adult Canadian became a citizen of any other country, he or she automatically lost Canadian citizenship. (That doesn't happen any more, under current Canadian law, but it did back then.) And if a Canadian man lost his Canadian citizenship, then his dependent =children= would =also= lose =their= Canadian citizenship in most cases (again, under the pre-1977 law -- Canada's current citizenship law doesn't have this provision).

So, when someone born in Canada moved abroad before 15 Feb. 1977, and then wants to get proof from the Canadian government that he/she is a Canadian citizen, they routinely ask for proof that the person (or his/her parents) didn't acquire citizenship in the other country at a time when that would have led to loss of Canadian citizenship. In the case of someone who moved to the US, Canadian officials routinely ask for proof of visa status as of 1977 (such as a student visa or a "green card") -- thus demonstrating that the applicant (and his/her parents, if the applicant was a minor at the time) still had an alien status and didn't obtain US citizenship.

Now, in Kiahlin's case, his parents didn't lose Canadian citizenship because they never =had= Canadian citizenship (they were alien perma- nent residents of Canada when Kiahlin was born, and they left Canada without ever becoming Canadian citizens). And while it's true that Kiahlin and his parents were US citizens, that wasn't because any Canadians got naturalized -- the parents were US citizens before they moved to Canada in the first place, and Kiahlin himself automatically got US citizenship at birth because of his parents' citizenship.

So, the standard material Kiahlin said he was being asked for isn't really applicable to his situation. But chances are he'll at least have to show =why= the standard questions don't apply in his case.

In many cases (subject to a bunch of complex rules), a child born outside the US to an American parent or parents =does= get auto- matic US citizenship at birth.

One of these cases is when both parents of a non-US-born child are US citizens. As long as either parent had =ever= lived in the US prior to the child being born, the child is a US citizen as far as the US is concerned. (He/she might also be a citizen of another country -- such as the country of his/her birth -- under that other country's laws, but the US really couldn't care less about that.)

In this case, it seems pretty certain that Kiahlin was in fact born with US citizenship, because of his American parents.

Of course, a child in this sort of situation needs to be brought to the attention of US officials somehow, or else they'll never know he/she is a US citizen by birth. This is preferably done by the parents' contacting a US embassy or consulate shortly after their child's birth -- in which case, after seeing suitable documentation, the US government will issue a special certificate (a "Consular Report of Birth Abroad") which says the baby is a US citizen. This certificate can be used as proof of citizenship for getting a US passport, or for other purposes.

In Kiahlin's case, his parents apparently never bothered to have him registered with US officials when he was a baby. He's still a natural-born US citizen -- his parents' omission doesn't change that -- but now that he's all grown up, it's going to be a bit more involved for him to amass all the necessary documentation to prove his status now. It's still doable; it's just going to be more of a hassle.

And for completeness, anyone who lost Canadian citizenship as a *child* (based on a parent's loss of citizenship before 15 February 1977) can now apply for resumption without needing to immigrate to Canada. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen/notice-resumption.html